Comments on: Stoic psychological tactics part two: The Dichotomy of Control http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/ Zen minded Minimalism in the Western world Thu, 09 Feb 2012 15:40:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Billy http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-10115 Billy Tue, 11 Jan 2011 15:02:48 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-10115 Love these posts, interesting and useful. On a critical note, I think it's possible to do without the trichotomy idea (though I see where it is coming from). Take for example the dancing competition. I think Epictetus, in this situation, would argue that I really do have no control over who wins, because this is conditional on a number of things, some of which I have no control over. We can split the competition itself into those things that we have total control over (I will train as hard as I can, I will dance the best I can, I will accept winning or losing with a good spirit), and those over which we have no control (how well the competition dances, how the judges see things, whether I get a bad cold on the day). There is no point in investing my self-worth in winning the competition (I might not win, I might win and just be lucky), but every point in dedicating myself to the goals of being the best dancer I can be. Your "cup of tea" example is another where, in a sense, we have no control. I'm thinking here of Epictetus's imaginary discourse where he talks about choosing to walk and his critic says "but what if you lost your legs?". Epictetus's response is that he can still choose to attempt to walk, legs or no. My cup of tea might be stolen or knocked over, or I might die of a heart attack right now - but I can choose to assent to the impression that it would be an appropriate thing for me to do now to take a sip from that cup of tea. Guess that's finally where I'm coming from - we have complete control over assenting or withholding assent, and, for a stoic, that's enough, since it is this disposition to assent or withhold that makes up our character. Love these posts, interesting and useful. On a critical note, I think it’s possible to do without the trichotomy idea (though I see where it is coming from).
Take for example the dancing competition. I think Epictetus, in this situation, would argue that I really do have no control over who wins, because this is conditional on a number of things, some of which I have no control over.
We can split the competition itself into those things that we have total control over (I will train as hard as I can, I will dance the best I can, I will accept winning or losing with a good spirit), and those over which we have no control (how well the competition dances, how the judges see things, whether I get a bad cold on the day). There is no point in investing my self-worth in winning the competition (I might not win, I might win and just be lucky), but every point in dedicating myself to the goals of being the best dancer I can be.
Your “cup of tea” example is another where, in a sense, we have no control. I’m thinking here of Epictetus’s imaginary discourse where he talks about choosing to walk and his critic says “but what if you lost your legs?”. Epictetus’s response is that he can still choose to attempt to walk, legs or no. My cup of tea might be stolen or knocked over, or I might die of a heart attack right now – but I can choose to assent to the impression that it would be an appropriate thing for me to do now to take a sip from that cup of tea.
Guess that’s finally where I’m coming from – we have complete control over assenting or withholding assent, and, for a stoic, that’s enough, since it is this disposition to assent or withhold that makes up our character.

]]> By: Ralph http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-284 Ralph Sat, 06 Jun 2009 00:26:50 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-284 But you have to be able to do it (cut the sticks in this case) so you have practiced over and over to acquire the skill. Probably somebody else has seen you do this so there are others who know what you can do whether you demonstrate the ability or not. If you never had to practice and noone ever saw that you could perform the act then the idea that you can actually do it has no meaning because you did nothing to accomplish it. It's like having blue eyes. Totallly not in your control. But you have to be able to do it (cut the sticks in this case) so you have practiced over and over to acquire the skill. Probably somebody else has seen you do this so there are others who know what you can do whether you demonstrate the ability or not. If you never had to practice and noone ever saw that you could perform the act then the idea that you can actually do it has no meaning because you did nothing to accomplish it. It’s like having blue eyes. Totallly not in your control.

]]> By: zenkrak http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-283 zenkrak Sat, 06 Jun 2009 00:08:09 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-283 "This all look like a mind game right now, and perhaps it is. " Of course it is. But one must also realize that the players in this game are you and yourself. I like the trichotomy concept very much, that is going up on the wall next to my desk! “This all look like a mind game right now, and perhaps it is. ”

Of course it is. But one must also realize that the players in this game are you and yourself. I like the trichotomy concept very much, that is going up on the wall next to my desk!

]]> By: Christiaan http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-282 Christiaan Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:35:20 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-282 For most people it's very hard to become good at something if nobody recognizes their progress. It reminds me somehow of a practice form some Iaido schools use (Iaido is a form of Japanese individual "sword play" to keep things simple.) called Tamashigiri, cutting tests. You cut a rolled up bundle of reeds to show you can cut properly. But in doing so, don't you lower yourself? Why do you want to show people that you can, you know within yourself you can do it or not. By having to prove to others that you can you put yourself down by lacking confidence that you can. It's a bit hard to explain, one the one hand I can easily see where it's coming from. After all, seeing is believing at times. But on the other hand -iaido being an internal martial art- why make it external. Seems a bit like boasting. Most people really do need this form of recognition. For most people it’s very hard to become good at something if nobody recognizes their progress.

It reminds me somehow of a practice form some Iaido schools use (Iaido is a form of Japanese individual “sword play” to keep things simple.) called Tamashigiri, cutting tests.

You cut a rolled up bundle of reeds to show you can cut properly. But in doing so, don’t you lower yourself? Why do you want to show people that you can, you know within yourself you can do it or not. By having to prove to others that you can you put yourself down by lacking confidence that you can.

It’s a bit hard to explain, one the one hand I can easily see where it’s coming from. After all, seeing is believing at times. But on the other hand -iaido being an internal martial art- why make it external.

Seems a bit like boasting.

Most people really do need this form of recognition.

]]> By: Carl http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-281 Carl Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:04:04 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-281 I often see people in my own dance community who fall into this trap. They fail to realize that they have control over their own ability to train and develop and do well yet without the recognition of competitions won they feel depressed and unacknowledged. This causes them to give up entirely since they aren't getting the perceived recognition they deserve when they should really just be trying to dance to the best of their ability and to improve their abilities. I often see people in my own dance community who fall into this trap. They fail to realize that they have control over their own ability to train and develop and do well yet without the recognition of competitions won they feel depressed and unacknowledged.

This causes them to give up entirely since they aren’t getting the perceived recognition they deserve when they should really just be trying to dance to the best of their ability and to improve their abilities.

]]> By: Christiaan http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-280 Christiaan Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:04:49 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-280 I'm glad you're like the writing so far. The rest of the series will probably be posted Thursday, Monday and Tuesday or something. I'm still writing them so I don't know exactly how things will work out. All I know is that I have 5 techniques I want to write about. Stay tuned, or subscribe to my feed for convenience. I’m glad you’re like the writing so far. The rest of the series will probably be posted Thursday, Monday and Tuesday or something. I’m still writing them so I don’t know exactly how things will work out. All I know is that I have 5 techniques I want to write about.

Stay tuned, or subscribe to my feed for convenience.

]]> By: CathD http://www.mindthebeginner.net/2009/06/stoic-psychological-tactics-part-two-the-dichotomy-of-control/#comment-279 CathD Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:26:22 +0000 http://mindthebeginner.wordpress.com/?p=779#comment-279 Great post, Christiaan. Setting goals that relate to stuff you have control over and accepting the stuff you don't have control over is one of the most important steps in thinking about what changes you want to make. I often have people saying things like, "I want people to respect me more.' That's not something you can control, and, as Byron Katie would say, that's not your business either. Saying, "I want to become more respect-worthy" (and then articulating what behaviours a respect-worthy person uses) makes your goal about something you have full control over - your own business! I look forward to the rest of the series. Cath Great post, Christiaan.

Setting goals that relate to stuff you have control over and accepting the stuff you don’t have control over is one of the most important steps in thinking about what changes you want to make. I often have people saying things like, “I want people to respect me more.’ That’s not something you can control, and, as Byron Katie would say, that’s not your business either. Saying, “I want to become more respect-worthy” (and then articulating what behaviours a respect-worthy person uses) makes your goal about something you have full control over – your own business!

I look forward to the rest of the series.

Cath

]]>